Let's discuss forum 'guidelines' re: customer service and discussions of others' work....

[pamelamama]

From this thread:
http://woolywonder.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1390&start=15

The quality of an unnamed wahm's work and customer service is being discussed. I am wondering:

Somewhat OT here, but I think relevant to the future of this forum...

Let's assume this WAHM is/could be a member of our community. Suppose she comes here and sees her work discussed, rather bluntly.

On MDC this type of customer service discussion isn't allowed, but I like for us to have more latitude here as a WAHM board.

So suppose it was your work being 'outed' this way. (And Laura, I don't mean to say you've done anything wrong, just want to open up a discussion.)

What can we do to:

a. be fair
b. keep drama to a minimum
c. allow open and honest discussion to the benefit of our community and the larger cloth diapering community.


:help

Your thoughts?

[steelmagnolia]

From this thread:
http://woolywonder.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1390&start=15

The quality of an unnamed wahm's work and customer service is being discussed. I am wondering:

Somewhat OT here, but I think relevant to the future of this forum...

Let's assume this WAHM is/could be a member of our community. Suppose she comes here and sees her work discussed, rather bluntly.

On MDC this type of customer service discussion isn't allowed, but I like for us to have more latitude here as a WAHM board.

So suppose it was your work being 'outed' this way. (And Laura, I don't mean to say you've done anything wrong, just want to open up a discussion.)

What can we do to:

a. be fair
b. keep drama to a minimum
c. allow open and honest discussion to the benefit of our community and the larger cloth diapering community.


:help

Your thoughts?

1. I don't see that anyone is making unfair comments. Most have said "Please leave a review so that others are aware of this WAHM's work and CS so that we may make an informed decision prior to purchase". I think that is extremely fair and to be honest, I'd be completely PO'd if I bought something from this WAHM and ended up with that seam. Provided that the OP has presented the story accurately, the WAHM wasn't too interested in hearing feedback on her product (just because no one else has complained doesn't make the first one who does WRONG). I'm a self taught knitter too but there is a reason that my items are not for sale as professionally crafted product. If your items don't look professional, expect it to be discussed far and wide and rightly so. Already I've read the many discussions on how knitting WAHMs are undercharging to begin with, the $45 that was paid for this product seems to be right in the lower range of what a lot of WAHMs are charging and she is sending out subpar items. Again, she should be expecting to see discussion on that and rightly so.

2. Drama: I've seen worse and didn't actually think there was any.

3. I think that this thread you're referring to is fine. No one has called the WAHMs personal character into question, no one has said she smokes crack while knitting, no one has "called her out" and the OP hasn't named names (although frankly I think she should) ... they've simply pointed out that her work isn't great and that apparently her CS isn't either.

I do feel that while it is nice to consider how a WAHM would feel about her work being discussed, I'm pretty tired of being on the consumer's end of things and never being able to get an honest answer except underground due to the intensive worry about hurting a WAHMs feelings or business. It hurts my POCKETBOOK to have to pay for shoddy work, especially because most mamas ordering custom knit items are not able to get refunds if the product turns out to be completley different than expected or represented. If a WAHM isn't able to withstand hearing her product discussed in a reasonable fashion then I beg of her to reconsider her profession without the consumer having to hear about how we are driving her into the ground and taking food out of her babies mouths. When I buy something from you and you don't give me what I paid for then YOU are taking from ME ... expect to hear me roar.

Sorry for the rant, sensitive topic for me? :emb

[Meredith]

Ok... I started to type something out... didn't like it... wasn't making any sense, and now I will try to make sense.

I don't want this to become an overly-regulated community. I don't think anyone does.

But I also don't want to make someone feel as if their work has been "outed" and now they have to sink back into the woodwork, either.

So what can we do? Can we limit these types of discussions to a review only thread, where only personal experiences can be interjected, as opposed to a "polling" situation where comments might be made that could become hurtful to the person who made that item (and when I say "that item" I am referring to the generic, not the specific)? So if I have a review of BJ Marketplace soakers, I can state how I feel about them, and then only those who HAVE these soakers can make comments?

Unfortunately, we are human. We have opinions, and I have not been one to not be vocal about these soakers. But I think that is because I know Karen is not on here to read these comments. It is the sterility of the environment that is comforting, I think.

However, if I have a MM, and I really don't like the yarn that Morwenna uses, I would be more hesitant to post a review on her because (1) I know she is a member here and (2) I consider her a colleague and an internet friend.

Can we leave it to the poster's discretion? Can we just say "don't say something about someone that you wouldn't want to read about yourself" and go from there? More of a constructive criticism as opposed to a bash (and Laura... please understand I am not saying you were bashing... I am just stating in general).

So those are my feelings and statements.

Don't know if I resolved anything....

[pamelamama]

Thanks for being the first one to jump in with a reply. :)

I'm not feeling like any big lines were crossed in the thread Laura started. I posted this thread hoping for community input about how this sort of thing should be addressed in general.

If the unnamed wahm :bag should come around and a heated exchange should begin... well honestly I would feel awkward hosting that and would want to have some strategies for mediation.

I set up these forums hoping for a place we can support each other. If someone is falling short with her customers, I'd love to come up with a way to help her improve, gently, tactfully,etc.

So steelmagnolia, thanks for sharing, and I'll be looking forwart to hearing others' opinions.

:pink

[pmcgary]

I am taking a break from the flood in our basement...
I never got into MDC b/c all I ever here is what you aren't supposed to do/say.....frankly, if I have a bunch of rules to keep straight, I probably would go into the woodwork myself.

In this particular case...the poster did go to the knitter - which I feel anyone with a complaint should do.

I thought everyone was pretty sensitive in their replies...I mean what if she had said....Well this was a soaker I knit and seamed? Would we have answered differently.

I think discussion of a knitter's work should remain constuctive and shouldn't become personal attacks....

Okay I am rambling when I should be cleaning up soggy whatever is in my basement! YUCK....

[pamelamama]

Mere, we cross posted! I agree with your sentiments. I am so *not* intersted in regulating people's comments. I am more interested in coming up with an agreed upon community standard and a way to deal with ouchies that might come up. :thumb

[pamelamama]

no one else has an opinion? I see ya all lurking y'know. ;)

[CraftyMommaOf2]

I think that honest reviews, with links to pics, are a fantastic thing. I agree that it's like the BJM issue...if people would be honest that their soakers are not good then she would have to do something about the quality. I am also one of those people that gets really mad when I get something that's completely not what I expected.
a) be fair
I think that as long as we can keep the thread civil then it will stay fair. It's usually once ppl get really mad that they start to mud sling.
b) drama
Keep involved in the thread and hopefully the drama stays to a minimum.
c) allow open and honest discussion...
Do just that. Regulating forums always backfires IMO. I think that our community we have here is mature enough that we can handle honest discussions.
Sorry this is so short and choppy...a million things running through my head and Gavyn just woke up :LOL

[Quinlonsma]

here here!!

[steelmagnolia]

Me again. I just wanted to apologize if I sounded some kind of megacranky. I am, but shouldn't have taken it out on my post. Not only that but I forget that I lurk soooo much more than I post and so while all of y'all are familiar to me, I am not to you. I didn't even sign my post, forgetting that I don't have a sig set up here.

So anyway, I apologize for seeming overaggressive in my first post on this. :emb

[Arwyn]

I never got into MDC b/c all I ever here is what you aren't supposed to do/say.....frankly, if I have a bunch of rules to keep straight, I probably would go into the woodwork myself.

Same here. In fact, this is the first forum EVER I've been actively involved in, largely due to that, and also due to its intimacy and friendliness.

I do absolutely think there should be a place for discussions of this manner. Although, I'm not sure what Laura wanted out of the original post - to rant? (Totally understandable, in which case leaving the name out was probably the wisest choice) - to figure out what to do? (sounds like she already chose her path, turning down a, perhaps not gracefully proffered, refund) - to get ideas on how to change the WAHM's business practices? That's probably the trickiest, stickiest, ickiest one, from a moderator's point of view. Interventions are tricky things to organize IRL when everyone knows (and is accountable) to everyone else - online, I think it might be impossible to do well. On the other hand, the advice Laura received all seemed both ethical and reasonable, to me at least.

So what to do when things like this pop up in the future? The same thing, I think. Encourage the consumer to go to the WAHM, which was already done here, encourage the consumer to honestly share her experience with others (of which, I believe, the WAHM should be informed), always keeping in mind what it would be like to be the WAHM being discussed, and offer sympathy as appropriate.

To Laura: I +hate+ that there's no way in this language to talk about something a person does without talking like they're not there. Sorry! And thanks, also, for letting us use your situation to talk about how we want to be as a community.

-Arwyn's :two

[pb_and_j]

I agree w/ others. I think it's important to discuss WAHM's and their products, how they do things, their CS. I would personally feel very hurt if someone discussed my work in a negative way in a public forum w/o contacting me first. I think generally someone who has good CS will right the situation, admit mistake (if there is one) and then hopefully the customer would not feel the need to discuss the situation any more... except to say that maybe she was disappointed but the WAHM had excellent service and the customer was completely satisfied.

[CraftyMommaOf2]

Maybe we could come up with a sort of check list of what to do if you're ever in the customer role and something goes wrong?

[Lauira]

Hmmmm, so many good things already said here.

First, I don't feel like anyone is picking on me. It is totally okay! My point of posting the other thread was to find out if it was *me* that had the problem and that the seam was fine, or if perhaps I was doing the right thing by questioning the quality. Since nobody had even complained until me, it could have been the former.

Pam: hubby and I run a forum too (17K+ members), and this is one of the places being an Admin isn't so fun. We have had to be really strict about rules, but I totally appreciate your openess to ideas.

I think first off, a post cannot be made about an issue unless the customer has contacted the mama FIRST. Most cases can be resolved super fast this way. 99% of the mamas out there want to sell a great product and if a mistake is made they MORE than make up for it.

If a customer does NOT get a good response, that should be addresses somewhere (here, MDC, wherever) because the buying public show know. BUT, if the mama offered a good solution and the customer STILL flames about it, that is NOT acceptable. Mistakes are a part of life. How you deal with them is what defines you (and your business).

I am not sure if you are looking for guidelines, but my suggestions for posting comments about buying experiences would be:

- if you are welcoming comments, make a certain area for that (like MDC has)
- if the buyer has not contacted the seller about the problem, the post is deleted and the poster is notified of what they need to do before posting
- if the buyer HAS contact the mama and has had an unsatisfactory solution (this is within reason, of course), then they may express this in a factual and non-flaming manner. This would be to educate others that are buying
- Posts are deleted that are just to flame with no real purpose but to trash the person it is directed at

I feel that if a post meets the criteria above, names should be mentioned. I KNOW that all the knitting mamas here would make things right for their customers. There would be no trashing of items just because a stitch was out of place. It would only be for legitimate issues that were not resolved properly so that others can avoid the same experiences.

Those are my thoughts on the topic. :) IME, you have to lay it all out and then just make sure the rules are followed. :mwah

[pamelamama]

So anyway, I apologize for seeming overaggressive in my first post on this. :emb

:hugs :)

So everyone, are we really feeling the need to have reviews here? Aren't we more of a creative than a consumer forum (except as yarn and pattern consumers ;) ) I mean, if we want to have a forum dedicated to reviews of our own products so that consumers can come here to check on them, I guess that's something to consider. But by and large, we are making and trading with each other, not looking to buy, no?

The idea of having to referee between dissatisfied consumers and wahms.... blech. I do not want to do that. Boooorrrring. :yawn

Laura, I totally appreciate your suggestions and support as an experienced forum hostess. I am wondering what my responsibility is in terms of 'libel' and such.

xoxox pam

[Lauira]

I don't think you need a review area at all. You could have on if you wanted, but I certainly don't think you *need* to. MDC has a review area - you can send people there.

I hope I didn't come off as reviewing someone in my first post - I really just wanted to talk about that evil, dark seam. LOL I am glad it sparked a discussion, though. I think you are doing awesome just as you have things now. Frankly, MDC and their guidelines stress me out. I know they have to do it, but still...

I just like the *feel* here. So warm and cozy. :)

[pamelamama]

Awww, thanks. We're a much smaller community here, so it's easier. Moderating at MDC is hard... do you know I'm a mod over there? But I agree it is necessary.

xoxoxo :mwah

[Arwyn]

I just like the *feel* here. So warm and cozy. :)
:heart :nod :heart :nod :heart :nod :heart

The OP was definitely more of a "Am I crazy? Am I crazy??" -type post (to quote a favorite book of mine), which I think is an appropriate use of these forums - when you get a product, and then a response, like that, isn't it natural to go to your circle of friends, especially those fluent in that product, for confirmation of your sanity and general commiseration? I think it is. Sure, we +could+ have a review section here, and it would have its pluses, but as other people have pointed out, there are other places for that - do we really want our friendly wooly home on the web to become commercial, regulated, officiated? I like how it is now. Comfy, casual. Warm and cozy, just like the soakers we all knit our fingers to the bone making. ::begin swell of patriotic music in the background:: :violin Where we can talk about whose yarn is better for Theresa's longies (or someone else's pants), or which pattern is better suited for a buddha-bellied chicken legged toddler, knowing that nobody's feelings will get hurt because we're all, at heart, seeking the same thing - the perfect soaker. ::music crescendos to uplifting end::

Aaaaaanyway. Once again, just my :two

(I'd do a better job satirizing overly-saccharine patriotic speeches, but this isn't a lit class assignment, so I'm not spending three hours getting it just right. So nyeh! :D)

[dandelions2]

I definitely don't post much at MDC cause of all the rules - that's just too scary IMO.

[imonion]

pam,

i know what you mean--if we open the board up as a "reviews" place, then it may/can change the dynamics of the posting here--

and i wouldn't want to be a post police, either.

i am of the opinion--if someone has a question about a knitted or crocheted item they have received, then to ask about it the way laura has is fine--but mdc has a reviews board and i don't really see a need to have one here, too.

jmo :)

[ravingcutie]

Pamelamama: put a general disclaimer somewhere about people's opinions not being your own: like they put before the behind the scenes interviews on dvds. (Ok, I am a broadcasting major and have done major class/discussion time on this topic) You could just post it on some Board Guidelines thingy somewhere sometime. That should cover your rear.

On the other topics:

I don't think we need a review board here. The diaper pin and MDC seem to take care of that aspect of things. However, I do think there should be a way to discuss these topics nicely, fairly as they will occasionally come up. If I were a WAHM (which I hope to be officially in a month or so) I would want to know if there was a problem with my product. I think that before posting, in any way, a customer owes it to the WAHM to try to resolve the issue before posting in a public forum. Maybe that should be our guideline. If you have a problem, you must contact the WAHM before posting or the post shall be deleted. I don't really have specific ideas, but I don't want this to degrade into name calling or worse. I love the community and openess that we have going here, and want that to continue.

[CraftyMommaOf2]

I don't think we should have a review section. Maybe there could be a sticky in the WAHM forum that has a link to like Diaper Pin or something with a note saying to please post reviews there. I don't think you should have to referee, Pamela. I think I misunderstood and thought that you wanted a forum for reviews.

[imonion]

And let me just ditto the warm and fuzzies I get from reading here!! I don't post often, but I enjoy reading.

It's kinda scary for WAHMs at MDC right now.

[pamelamama]

I'm glad you all like it here. :love

[pageta]

This board is more of a place for those who get reviewed than those who review products. In other words, the producers rather than consumers tend to congregate here. If people here want to buy soakers, then Diaperpin and MDC are more appropriate places to post reviews because that's where the consumers tend to congregate. If you have a "consumer" issue that is just a "consumer" issue (you're not trying to get the opinion of other producers to see if you really have something to complain about), then your post will be more effective posted in the consumer forums (aka not here). When I say "producer," I mean people who make their own knitted items, regardless of whether or not they sell them to other people or just make them for themselves.

So my only guideline would be, "Remember that the person you're critiquing may also surf this board and read your post." Be nice, be fair. This board should be a place where everyone feels welcome to come and learn together from the producer side (rather than strictly the consumer side).

[leah]

I totally agree with the above post!

[pamelamama]

:nod :thumb Well put, Dr. Tana.

Now I need to decide if I want to formally post the "Play Nice" guideline someplace ...

[Arwyn]

So are we all agreed? Or rather, Pamela, what's your final opinion on this? It seems like everyone who's posted thinks we should pretty much keep things the way they are: warm and fuzzy, not review-y, maybe with a cover-your-:cd disclaimer, but no implementation of a massive rule structure or anything (am I misrepresenting anyone?).

Maybe have a post somewhere for guidelines like "if you have a problem with a WAHM's work, whether she is a member here or not, please contact her before talking about it here. Please remember to be polite and respectful at all times. No :af-wars!"

Common sensical and low key, that's definitely my vote, and it seems like everyone else's.

[CraftyMommaOf2]

ITA :thumb

[marnie]

my opinion is that i don't envy you. heh.

the problem with talk about the "unnamed blah blah" is that we all start wondering "who is it?" and if i think buy from that person and the original poster says "see what I mean?" when I'm not happy with my purchase then i feel screwed by not knowing the facts first.

On the other hand, this is a knitter's/crocheter's forum, not a buyer's forum and i think perhaps reviews should be open and honest about materials but perhaps not of purchased knitted projects. that goes for both the positive and the negative. if i have one of your soakers I can't go spouting off about how much i love it, because that's a review. however, in a gallery thread you post I can say "i like the way you do blah blah blah" because it's an on-topic comment. does that make sense?

But materials are appropriate to review. For example, if i am thrilled by the yarn or pattern i got from someone, even someone who is a member here, then i should feel free to review that experience in the appropriate forum. Likewise if i'm unhappy. I don't think the admin of these forums can require me to contact the manufacturer/vendor before posting a review, much as that might help avoid drama/hurt feelings etc.

if i bought a set of Addis that fell apart (heaven forbid!) no one would require me to contact Addi (though I may want to) before posting about it. in fact people have posted about sets falling apart at the joints, etc. without worrying about hurt feelings on the part of the manufacturer. buying from a WAHM increases the possibility that they may actually see the post, but I don't think it's your responsibility to make sure people contact the seller before they post.

Of course everyone's first response will be "i think you should contact the seller" but so be it.

[pageta]

I agree...you don't always need to contact the seller first. Sometimes you may be wondering if your complaint is worth contacting the seller over, and thus you obviously wouldn't be contacting the seller first.

As for a rule, I would say the Golden Rule should be our rule - Treat others as you would want to be treated. Before you type a post, think about others might feel if they read it. Obviously you can't anticipate all responses, but if everyone tries to do their best to be nice and fair while at the same time being honest and objective, we all will be much better off than we would be had we not had whatever dialogue.

[CheekyMamaof2]

I feel that the gal was honest and seeking advice, and not at all being unreasonable. uh.....thats all of my thought.
M

[danaTCT]

ok, i didn't read each and every reply but i do have a couple of comments to make

1. wahms are hurt when someone goes public before contacting them. the buyer might not see the big deal in this, but think of how it would make you feel to see your stuff posted publically before you even knew there was a problem. it hurts. you can't believe the number of wahms who are seriously affected by this. so, please first, even if you aren't sure you have a reason to contact the wahm, contact them first before posting publically.

2. sure you can ask what is up with a product, but more than likely you already know something is not right, and you just want others too see and validate. kind of like spreading the gossip per se. so, i think second you leave an honest review. you state the condition of the item and the wahms reponses to your situation. if she wants to reply, she can if she doesn't than that's her right too.

3. i think there should be open and honest discussion on items but only after the first two things have happened. nothing attacking either, just the facts ma'am just the facts. we should all be here to support one another, not criticize other's work. and the fact is some people are more new to sewing and knitting than others. they haven't learned all of the tricks to the trade. i know i have received some items that have been less than stellar and i would never feel comfortable outing those people in public, as it's not really fair to them.

4. i also think that at any time in a heated discussion the mods have every right to step in and close down that thread.

these are just my :two

[pamelamama]

:) Thanks Dana :mwah

[CraftyMommaOf2]

4. i also think that at any time in a heated discussion the mods have every right to step in and close down that thread.

ITA with this, too. I don't really think that's gonna be an issue here, but I do think noone should feel like the bad guy if it needs to be done, KWIM?